New Paradigm Recovery CEO Joey Zabel sits down with Jim Denver, Chairman of the Ashley Addiction Treatment Board of Directors to discuss sobriety and service in this video interview. They discuss Jim’s journey to recovery, the importance of treatment in his recovery journey, and how service guides his leadership at Ashley today. Watch the full video interview with Jim Denvir here:
Transcript:
Read the full transcript of Joey’s interview with Jim Denvir below.
Jim’s Story:
Joey Zabel:
My name is Joey Zabel and I’m the CEO of New Paradigm Recovery. I’m here with my good friend Jim Denvir. He’s the chairperson for the Ashley Board of Directors. Jim, thanks for taking the time to talk to us today.
Jim Denvir:
You’re very welcome. Thank you.
JZ:
So we’ve been doing these videos at New Paradigm, with people that work in recovery, work in the treatment field, or people in recovery peer specialists. And Jim’s unique position—he’s on the board and the chairperson for the board of a very good, one of the best treatment centers in the world. So I’m very pleased to have his time and his input today.
JD:
Thank you. Thank you.
JZ:
Yeah.
So, Jim, my first question is, can you tell us your background? What were you doing before recovery?
JD:
Yeah, I was a lawyer. I went to University of Florida law school, and I graduated, and from then I went on to the Department of Justice Antitrust Division. And I spent about nine years there.
And, so when I came out, I was a partner in I think two law firms. When Don Flexner recruited me to join Boies Schiller Flexner—he had been my first boss at DOJ. And, he was a long-time mentor. And he will come up in my story.
Okay. So, yeah, I’ve been here for I think 24 years.
JZ:
Wow.
JD:
Yeah.
JZ:
Okay, you’re in recovery now. Yeah. So what happened to you? You know, decided to get help?
JD:
Well, I drank for about 40 years. And the progression was so subtle that I didn’t even realize it until it was too late. There was a saying in AA that, you know, once a pickle, always a pickle. And you can’t go back to being a cucumber. So I crossed the line somehow I went to alcoholism. I wish I’d known where the line was. But it was just so subtle that the progression was so subtle that I didn’t even realize it.
So toward the end of my drinking, I had to have alcohol in my system 24 hours a day. And I took a lot of benzos, too, which I had for years. And, my last binge started on a business trip to Amsterdam. And from there to Tokyo. And I drank all the way on the plane to Amsterdam. And I went there to do through a hearing and, I drank before, I drank after the hearing, and I drank all the way on the plane to Tokyo.
I didn’t think it was appropriate to drink during the hearing. So, you know, I went on to Tokyo, where I was supposed to do some interviews, and in a case I was working on, I got so drunk that I couldn’t do the interviews. Unfortunately, there was an associate who was capable of doing the interviews instead of me. I wasn’t there. So I was back in my hotel room drinking and, I got so drunk that I just couldn’t do the interviews that I went halfway around the world for.
JZ:
Wow.
JD:
So from there, I went to, I went home where my wife and I were supposed to go to a college friend’s in New York for dinner. There were probably 16 people there. A long story short, the last thing I remember was walking into my college friend’s apartment, and, I woke up the next morning with my wife. Fortunately, and I realized I had to apologize for something. The problem was, I had no idea what I had to apologize for. And so I said, I’m sorry. Well, she said that’s not enough anymore. And, so I didn’t know what I was going to do.
I didn’t think I would ever stop drinking because it was part of my life. I mean, it was my best friend. Alcohol was my best friend. A couple of days later, I was in New York again for a meeting with my then partner, Don Flexner. And, as I said, he was my first boss at the Department of Justice. He was a long-time mentor of mine.
And he said, he called me in the hotel where I was drinking and said, do you have a drinking problem? And for anybody else, I would have denied it. But he was just such a straight arrow. And you really cared about me. And I said after a pause that seemed like three hours. There was probably 30 seconds. I said, yeah, I do. And he said, you know, we will, you need help and we will support you.
So I got to look at my life. What would be my life without a career and a family? That was enough for me. So I went to Ashley a couple of weeks later, and, you know, I’ve been sober and haven’t had a drug, mind-altering drug, for going on 17 years.
JZ:
Wow.
It’s 17 years already?
JD:
Yeah.
JZ:
Not already.
JD:
Well, yeah.
JZ:
Oh, wow.
JD:
Well. Let’s see. It’s, you know, it seems like a blink of an eye. Every year, I mean, every day took a year. Every year took a day. So, you know, I just, I did it one day at a time.
JZ:
What year was it?
JD:
2007.
JZ:
And Father Martin had already passed at that point, as you know.
JD:
No, he had not had.
JZ:
Okay.
JD:
But he, he passed in 2008.
JZ:
Oh, okay. Okay.
JD:
So I was it for my first reunion. I’d never met Father Martin. And I was first in line to meet him, and I took him away in his wheelchair before I had a chance to meet. So I’d never met Father Martin and said I met May. May. Abraham. Who was the co-founder of Ashley? But I never met Father Martin.
Service
JZ:
Jim, you’ve always been involved in service. I mean, I share this before the recording that I first met you when I was a patient at Ashley. And you came in doing service, talking to those of us that were in our last week of treatment who were about to go back out into the world. How has service played a part in your recovery?
JD:
Yeah. Well, for one thing, I volunteer a lot at Ashley, and I’m a volunteer board member. None of us are paid, which is appropriate for what our value is. So, you know, I go to the Zoom meetings at 8 a.m. and 5 p.m. every day of the week, and I go to in-person meetings on the weekends. And, I sponsor, I have a great sponsor. Nelson Rupp—he’s a former judge. So I respect him normally. And I sponsor about four people. Okay. I think exactly four. Right.
So and I try to meditate and I try to meditate. And I try to do my readings every day and that’s what I do to assist, to stay sober.
JZ:
How did treatment help you? I mean, I know you’ve stayed sober since you were there, but what did you mean? As 28 days seem to have changed your life?
JD:
It did. I mean, I owe, I hope, actually, a debt that can never be repaid. I, I owe my life, my career, my family to Ashley. And, you know, suddenly I woke up at Ashley. And, you know, I, I, I go down that longest driveway in the world and I still get chills up my spine. It’s a very spiritual place. It’s, you know, as you know, it’s right on the banks of the Chesapeake Bay.
And you know, I spent a lot of time in the chapel, Father Martin’s chapel. And you know, just looking out at the bay. And, I had a great counselor. And, I met then Father Mark in the food line. And I had a lot to get off of. You know, I thought he was a patient at first, but he was too well-dressed. So, I found out he was a Catholic priest, so I had a lot on my chest that I needed to get off. And, so I asked him to hear my confession.
So I went and I went into his office and I said, Father, it has been 35 years since my last confession. And he said, we’ll just do the big stuff. So that was the beginning of my awakening.
JZ:
Okay. Yeah. That’s awesome.
So you’re a partner here?
JD:
Yes.
JZ:
Okay. Senior partner?
JD:
Yes.. So, looking at me, I’m nothing but senior.
JZ:
Well, my point is that you’re pretty busy with your job.
JD:
Yes.
JZ:
How did you decide to take on a position as the chairman of… Or chairperson of the board of directors?
JD:
Yeah. As I said, I mean, I was on the board. Dave Nassef asked me to be the successor to his chairmanship. And I became chairman in January. January 19th, 2019.
And as I said, I owe Ashley my—I mean, my wife, my family, and my career. It’s a debt that I can never repay. So I mean, I’ve done a lot of service work for Ashley. You know. I, you know, I somehow became chairman of Ashley, right. Somehow.
JZ:
It’s a big—I mean, it’s a big responsibility and a big position and it’s my understanding it’s a fairly active board.
JD:
Yeah.
JZ:
Really? You know, that’s why I’m amazed when you’re already busy. That’s like a whole job.
JD:
I mean, yeah, we have committee meetings probably once a month. Wow. We have board meetings three times a year. But it’s a very active board. So I basically do nothing except run the meetings.
Leadership through Covid-19
JZ:
Okay. So you all you all you came on or you were on the board anyway at a time when Ashley went through a lot of changes, if I remember correctly.
JD:
Yes.
JZ:
Changing of CEOs.
JD:
Yes, a couple times. Yes.
JZ:
How did how was that for you?
JD:
Yeah. It was a tumultuous time. I mean, it was it was chaotic. So, you know, Mark Horsham used to be the chairman of the board. He used to be CEO. And he was training to be a priest, which is just the opposite of the CEO. So he gave that up willingly, and Dave Nassef stepped into the breach. And then we had Becky Flood and she left. And we now have two extraordinary people, co-CEOs of Ashley. Greg Hobelmann and Alex Denstman.
And you know, Dave used to be chairman of the board and you know, he thought, well, he used to be he, he stepped into the breach so many times. So he was CEO at the time. And after Becky left and so he had the idea that we needed someone from Ashley who had the Ashley DNA. And fortunately, we had two great guys, two extraordinary people. In the form of Greg and Alex. And they had complementary skill sets. Greg as you know as a doctor. And a psychiatrist. Alex has an MBA as it has an MBA.
So you know they’ve, they’ve done really well and they exercise great judgment. Judgment beyond our expectations at the time we appointed them. They’ve had challenges but they’ve addressed them head on. And you know, I couldn’t speak more highly of Alex or Greg.
JZ:
So it’s it’s unorthodox, to say the least. You don’t see a lot of organizations with dual CEOs.
JD:
No. Right.
JZ:
And they’re both equal.
JD:
Yeah.
JZ:
But yeah, but you do have the medical. I mean, Greg is obviously the medical side of things from your perspective. And Alex’s the business side.
JD:
Yeah, they they don’t run into each other very much. You know, they they respect each other. They’re both in the program, the AA program. And they practice that program and all their affairs. And all their business affairs. So yeah, they don’t have any I mean they don’t have any observable conflicts. And they both respect each other and both respect, they both respect their respective opinions.
JZ:
And these guys got you through Covid.
JD:
Oh yes.
JZ:
I mean that was something.
JD:
Yeah. Really was something.. Yeah I mean that’s just the whole society changed as a result of Covid. People were not used to, participating in person. The Zoom was the primary means of communication and somehow they got us through it.
JZ:
Yeah. I remember us referring clients there and dealing with like, I was on a 14 day quarantine at first before anybody knew anything else. It was like you got isolated and the last thing you would do with an alcoholic is put them alone for 14 days, you know?
JD:
Yeah. They had a, like, a 3 or 4 day isolation period. Okay. So we reduced our census by two thirds I think. Or by half. So we could make the beds available. For isolation.
But you know and, and the staff really, you know, performed well in excess of our expectations. I mean they came to work every day, putting their families at risk and putting their own health at risk. And you know it’s a sign of their dedication to patients.
Recent Changes in Addiction Treatment
JZ:
So since you’ve been on the board for a position or in a previous position as a board member, how have you seen the landscape with the landscape of treatment change. So how have you been on the board. I don’t even know that.
JD:
I think probably ten years. Ten years.
JZ:
Okay. So you’ve seen a lot of change?
JD:
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
I mean, we have many more comorbid situations. Conditions? Mental health and and substance abuse are clearly an integrated integrally related. Fortunately, Greg runs our research program and we have a partnership with Johns Hopkins. They put one person on our campus. They have like a whole three dedicated people through our program. And, they jointly published, to meet these challenges, at least ten papers.
JZ:
Wow.
JD:
And peer reviewed journals. And, to show how cutting edge the they are, the pre-publication title of the article there were writing at last, my last knowledge was Machine Learning and How it Can be Used to Predict Patient Outcomes.
JZ:
Oh, I’ve heard about that. Yeah.
JD:
Yeah. So I mean, we have the ability to meet the challenges. You know, I’m sure you’re aware of the, given your position of the, fentanyl epidemic. And that is, you know, that’s a scourge. Yeah.
You know, so.
JZ:
Sure. And Ashley’s approach to, I know this from just having we work a lot with Ashley, with our patients. You know, it’s just either referring to or getting them from. But, just our whole our both my, our, you know, our whole approach to treatment with, medically assisted treatment. Yes. You know, prior to ten years ago, it was like, oh, yeah, total abstinence. And Ashley was one of the biggest 12 step programs of total abstinence. Yeah. And and, you know, that’s where I came from with my recovery. But with the advent of fentanyl. Yes, you you have to do what you have to do to keep people alive.
JD:
Yes. Yeah.
So, Greg is an absolute genius of that. Medically assisted. That’s assisted treatment. But you know it’s the treatment world has changed a lot. In the last ten years. Sure.
JZ:
Okay Jim thank you so much for your time today. It’s always a pleasure to see you. And I hope to see you up at campus sometime or at a meeting soon. Always a pleasure to see you, Joey. Thanks.
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